Forget that old refrain about not mentioning politics or religion at the dinner table, emotive asseveration is all the vogue.
Before we get started though, I think we need to set a few ground rules. First of all, let's be really drunk and loud, and only get started at about 3am. Sobriety and appropriate courtesy are the twin killers of any incoherent, boorish argument. Interrupt as often as possible. Every time your opponent verbally completes a train of thought, baby Jesus cries. Crucially, the personal enmity grounding this vitriolic nonsense should centre (at least at first) on mistaken identity, where the semiconscious mind of a juvenile inebriate projects the hebephrenic pro-fascism of one drunken idiot onto another (drunken idiot). The fact that a certain disliked character in "Die hard 4" bears a passing resemblance to your adversary cannot be brought up enough.
After we've interrupted the other side's facile, vapid nonsense, we need to replace it with our own; pick out the most irrelevant part of their ill-considered diatribe and argue on a complete tangent. Allow the conversation to oscillate randomly from religion to the War on Terror. No rejoinders please, that would get uncomfortably close to a logical debate. The format should be assertion, interruption, rebuttle, personal attack. In fact if at all possible, we should maintain logical coherence only at the level of the individual sentence. Contradict ourselves as often as possible. Confuse male circumcision with castration. One person who thinks the US government organized the September 11 attacks should use it as evidence of the absence of a benevolent creator, the other side should recycle half remembered BBC documentaries that fail to address the question, and then claim that no one in Afghanistan supports Al-Qaeda.
During an intermission, we should play drinking games, but even then, residual nastiness is key. When playing "I never" (normally a way to discover the other's adventurous side) we should declare "I never met a supervisor of Kim's that I respected."
On the pro-religion side, we need to make liberal recourse to the "appeal to consequences" fallacy. Let's insist on the existence of local metaphysical truths applicable to the whole universe, which vary from person to person depending on mood and circumstance. Deny the atheist's right to an opinion; assume their lives lack personal tragedy, and argue that as a result they are too shallow to think about this.
For the anti side, 2 simple words; Scientific Chauvinism. Deny any possibility of being wrong, even the solipsistic one intrinsic to all empirical observations.
Only by opening an embarrassingly one- dimensional dialogue on the most simple and wholly ignorant level can we ensure that we, as a nation, never get down to the deeper issues about religious identity that truly threaten to tear this country apart.
Who's with me?With apologies to the onion.
13 comments:
While I appreciate your take on the situation I think we need to make something clear: I was right.
The problem with Irish economists is that they are a) Irish and b) economists.
Furthermore any discourse that is inexorably linked to Macca on a Sunday morning in my alcohol and fatigue addled mind, however tenuious the link in reality, deserves to not occupy an equal position with my atheist harangue on your blog.
I am so so sad I missed that.
This is possibly my favourite post ever.
To Chris: I didn't attend the latter part of the conversation but I don't think you were fair to the economist.
First you said that we (the economists) created the crisis. I could say it is a fairly "naive" statement, if not very "wrong".
Bankers and stock-brokers(who are not necessary economists, more business/management/finance indeed) involved in creating the mess. And regulators (who are politicians) didn't listen to economic advices in watching the market closely.
We couldn't predict or prevent it doesn't mean we are entirely responsible for it.
Anothing thing I consider naive about you was you didn't know how the level of specialisation of economics sub-disciplines. Even when your argument that economists were responsible for the crisis is valid, only the group of financial economist (and funny enough, many hardcore financialists/financial economists are financial mathematicians as they did all the modelling !!!) Who should be blamed now???
That's why I call you naive.
Economists who deal with health, education, development aid, labour market etc do not know anything more than you do about the financial markets (maybe less because they didn't spend lots of time on news and youtube!!!).
Second, if you couldn't win an argument with a person, then I don't think it is reasonable to blame their nationality.
And by the way, I don't think you can prove that God doesnt't exist. You only believe (or want to beleive) so (is that the definition of atheist?) Since you cannot, you cannot say you are right!!!
I assume that it was alcohol that did the talking, neither of you guys!!! Otherwise, I could easily feel disappointed that some highly intellectual persons could involve in such superficial arguments (and then taking it so personal).
Kim, it was indeed the alcohol. I do not remember saying that economists caused the financial crisis. That is not to say that I didn't say it, just I don't remember.
Even if I did say it, I do not think it.
Secondly, blaming a person's nationality is OK so long as that nation is Ireland.
I think it's reasonable to blame free market ideology for this crisis. Most economists I've talked to (or heard from, or read) have a strong pro-free market bias, and have been pushing this opinion in public discourse and the wider society for decades. Not all economists think this way of course, but most do, and it is the dominant thinking in academic schools and think tanks throughout the world. This latest catastrophic failure is only one example of the flaw in that basic intellectual framework, I believe there will be others to come. In that sense, I think it is fair to place at least some of the blame on most economists as a group.
Chris: That's funny, blaming a health economist for the crisis (if you did). Maybe you were kidding her along and then forgot what you were saying. I wish I'd heard more, as far as I remember I turned up in time to hear you get called a Fascist and (I think) I was then insulted in some strange attempt to score a point against you.
Sam: I think it's pretty clear that free markets are prone to a boom bust cycle, but this situation is pretty poor evidence against free markets as such. I think this is more an example of how spectacularly bad government can turn a market bust into something really special. Instead of working to moderate the market herd instinct, they reduced capital requirements during the largest credit expansion ever, while encouraging no deposit mortgages to people with no money at the height of a housing boom. Meanwhile the Chinese economic strategy is based on lending the US money to buy their stuff, then lending more to protect their investment (they haven't let me in on their exit strategy).
Synopsis: human stupidity is incurable, we're all doomed.
Surprising conclusion: we all need to drink more.
I am left with a profound sense of sorrow at not being present to hear Chris getting called a fascist.
Perhaps a youtube re-enactment is in order?
There are two things which should be dropped from my last sentence. Firstly, the word 'perhaps'. Secondly, the question mark.
Hey James,
I'm not saying that a stock market failure is a reason not to have a market at all. What I am saying is that the specific causes of this latest failure you so aptly described stem from not just "spectacularly bad government," but from an anti-government neoliberal ideology which has been pushing financial deregulation for decades. The forces of deregulation have been consistent in their belief that government should not impose restrictions on innovative derivatives, or caps on the amount of leverage financial institutions can get themselves into. They have also been instrumental in watering down antitrust laws that prevent institutions becoming "too big to fail."
It is this approach (and the market fundamentalism underpinning it) that I believe is now discredited by the latest financial crisis.
Fitz, I'm afraid I wasn't there for the fascist comment either, but I was present during the two dozen times Grace dismissed Chris's opinion based on the fact that he died in "Die Hard 4"
Hi Sam, I think your comment is about right. Certainly any economist who thought that huge financial institutions with implicit government guarantees and no countervailing regulation were a good idea needs to be bitch-slapped. This might have been passed off as free market reform, but I'm not yet convinced that it was actually supported by most economists. You could well be right, it would be interesting to know for sure. I have the impression though that the really good economists tend to have a much more sophisticated view than their ideological followers.
I don't claim to fully understand what happened, but I'm a bit worried about the whole mess being blamed on free markets in general, with people drawing the conclusion that "capitalism has failed" and then, say, nationalising everything in sight.
Apologies to all for the serious turn.
...the two dozen times Grace dismissed Chris's opinion based on the fact that he died in "Die Hard 4"
........ ?
you really had to be there
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